JemmyGreece, Italy and France ignore ICC warrant as Netanyahu flies through airspace for Trump talks
www.turkiyetoday.com/region/greece-italy-and-fr…
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/40976381
The plane carrying Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to Florida for talks with U.S. President Donald Trump passed through the airspace of three countries that are parties to the International Criminal Court, despite an active ICC arrest warrant against the Israeli leader.
Flight tracking data from FlightRadar24 showed Netanyahu’s aircraft, known as “Wings of Zion,” crossed the airspace of Greece, Italy and France before reaching the Atlantic Ocean.
All three countries are signatories to the Rome Statute, which obliges member states to cooperate with ICC arrest warrants.
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So now the question is, what accountability and consequences are we going to apply to the Greek, Italian, and French officials who failed to do their goddamn jobs and aided and abetted a war criminal?
wabafee
demonswordI, for one, will be crushing a grape tonight, such is my outrage.
Fascinating to see all the colonial and post colonial grandstanding of the West culminate into this.
I mean I figured it was all a bunch of fucking posturing, but it’s nice to have confirmation I guess?
No one is going to arrest him while he’s still PM
There are a lot of countries that absolutely would arrest him. Unfortunately close to none of them are the ones touting international human rights.
Here are a couple of his past flight paths:
geneva_convenience
ORbituaryThis is a sad reality. I don’t understand why you’re getting down-voted for a realistic take. We live in a post-conscience world.
An legal obligation is a legal obligation we don’t give a damn about excuses
A legal obligation without enforcement isn’t really a legal obligation. See the current state of affairs in the US
We live in a post-conscience world
I disagree. The only thing that changed is that (some) people stop pretending that exists some kind international law, and any and all treaties signed by all countries are subject to political and/or economical pressures. Enforcement of said treaties work the same way.
MinnesotaGoddamHuh, I am curious to see how diplomatic/absolute immunity (just using the local jargon not colloquial terms) and that treaty mesh
Not. Which is why Netanyahu avoided several countries like Spain, which would have provided him a more direct flight to the US.
The countries listed were Netanyahu’s detour route where Israel exerts enough control to surpass their legal system.
What would the countries be supposed to do? Let’s ignore politics. I’m a small law-abiding country, I’m a member of the ICC. Let’s also assume that I’m aware of the warrant and have knowledge about the flight path and the passengers.
Now what? Shall I politely ask them to land in The Hague? Should I use force? Risk starting a war?
The only realistic option I see is to diplomatically request to use a different route. Or maybe make it so that I can pretend I was not informed.
Yes, you have air traffic control command them to land. If they don’t, you escort them down with jet fighters. All that has occurred here is the ICC has shown that warrants can be situationally worthless.
Yes, you risk starting a war if you arrest a war criminal. That sucks. But that doesn’t mean you ignore the warrant for fear of consequence. Now our fucking idiot president here gets a huge, very unneeded ego injection knowing European powers are afraid to arrest criminals going to speak to a convicted felon.
Europe is America’s bitch. Always has been.
Israel is an American colony in the middle East.
Joe Biden once said if Israel didn’t exist, we’d have to invent one.
America has to fall for this genocide to end. There’s just too much money involved in this colony. There’s middle eastern oil which will be under the Greater Israel control, they will also control the Suez canal.
I’m American and I agree that nothing short of a catastrophic collapse is going to solve our own problems domestically, as well as put a stop to the laundry list of horrors we commit abroad.
Are you European or American?
Should I use force?
Yes. You scrample fighter jets and force them down, using missiles if necessary.
Risk starting a war?
This does not follow. The war would be started by whoever illegally retaliated for a lawful arrest, not by whoever did the arresting.
Yes landing the plane with force is literally the law.
Or even easier, don’t give it flight space access. Flight space access is granted on request. Planes don’t just simply show up above an airspace and hope to not get shot down. It’s all with permission.
Netanyahu did not show up at the border unannounced saying “let me through or else”. He got permission ahead of time. Had he not gotten permission, he would have had to find another country who did or gone around. Especially for Greece and Italy which don’t really stand in his way, the Mediterranean is right there!
Even assuming that Netanyahu calls the bluff and flies through, there are a lot of options ahead of all-out war. For instance sending jets to “intercept” his plane and escort him out saying “he refused to follow orders to land and we did not deem it worth it to escalate the situation”. It’s not like his airliner is armed or anything. But it would send a very different diplomatic message.
For France in particular, this is far from the first time he flies over its territory unimpeded. This is not a matter of military concerns, this is pro-Israel Macron taking a stance to show support for his ally. He’s not been very outspoken on Gaza because the domestic political situation is very delicate and anything he says can only weaken his support further, but his personal stance is hardly a secret and the military interceptors are under his full control.
Yes you can tell them you will arrest them if they fly over. And you should start a war.
Not sure what the point of joining the ICU if you don’t want to hold the laws.
The war would be started by whoever illegally retaliated for a lawful arrest, not by whoever did the arresting.
gustofwindStart a war? Part of the point of joining international organizations is to stop war from reoccurring so for you to casually suggest starting a war is to come from a completely unserious position.
You’re part of an international organisation. The other country is not part of that organisation. The countries in your international organisation would come to defend you.
Also France is no “small country”
Until the leaders of countries, and all those seeking that same power fear to misuse that power, war will be a natural state of our species.
Sure, you might have to start a small war or two, but eventually people will get the point that their leaders need to be held accountable by the people of those countries, or other countries will hold them to account.
Without any of that, we end up exactly right where we are, where leaders and countries can get away with genocide, completely invalidating any power those global institutions are supposed to wield.
How do you arrest one person on a plane flying through the air?
explodicleYou intercept with fighter jets and give them one last chance to land. That’s not my opinion, that’s literally how it works.
And if they don’t…? It’s a nice idea, but do you think they’re going to shoot down a plane with other people on it and everything will just be fine?
JohnEdwaI don’t think anyone being above the law is just fine either.
My point was I don’t think there would be any real consequences if they didn’t land and obviously shooting them down would cause a lot more problems. For the record, I dont think either are ok, I just think that’s the reality of the situation.
You point missiles at em and shoot if needed
You withdraw fron icc. France and italy are in the nato, israel is not idiotic to start a war with the west
nymnympseudonymI blame Trump for putting them in an impossible situation
Implying any American president wouldn’t do the same? (cough like Biden admin)
Direct talks with not one but two war criminals?
That’s not normal.
Read a damn history book… all these countries were on the HITLER side of the war during WWII!
Smart people NEVER FORGET! They are all COWARDS and will always be!! Read… history!
They are selfish and in it for themselves! They don’t give a damn about the world… hence, history repeating itself again!
Did you know the Greeks have a holiday commemorating the day they told fascist Italy to go fuck off?
NEVER FROGET!
You know, I have always loved Greece and I never needed more reasons, but bathe me in olive oil and fetch me some toum
There’s a Greek expression I love:
“Garlic and Onions, Left to Right”
I’m not entirely sure what it means, but I feel it in my bones.
This comment is satire, right?
It was until people and took it seriously… I wish people could hear sarcasm through media! Jezzzz! :/
Like Greece and Italy would ever be on the same side of a war
Petr JandaThat’s because Europe is gutless and doesn’t want to upset Trump.
Not ALL of Europe, just the vast majority of it.
It would be a REAL shame if someone tampered with the return flight path to make it pass through Ireland and/or Spain..
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While I’d like it, it would make him a matter and justify them take out all of Palestine/Palestinians. We knew countries like Greece would do such, they signed agreements with Israel because they know Israel seems to get backing no matter what. And the fighters they bought are F-35s. Trump supports N, they both will support him.
gndagrebornThen what’s the point of the ICC if no one respects their orders and enforces them? Giving me league of nations vibes.
What were they supposed to do? Scramble jets and intercept/ force a landing?
Surely shooting them down if they haven’t faced a trial can’t be protocol, as a U.S. citizen that would be like blowing up boats and claiming they have drugs on them and not letting the people stand trial
You intercept any unauthorised aircraft flying over your airspace using a fighter jet, force them to land. If they don’t land, you can shoot them legally because they’re in your airspace.
That’s like how America can legally shoot a Chinese balloon flying in their airspace.
What were they supposed to do? Scramble jets and intercept/ force a landing?
*YES!*
Surely shooting them down if they haven’t faced a trial can’t be protocol, as a U.S. citizen that would be like blowing up boats and claiming they have drugs on them and not letting the people stand trial
Your comparison is bullshit and you should feel bad. The essential difference is that the US Navy isn’t even trying to give the falsely-accused fisherman a chance to surrender and stand trial.
I absolutely unequivocally don’t feel bad. It’s due process, and if you wave that right then you should be in prison for anything anytime period. You should feel like a niave fool.
And yes, they should have demanded they land.
The answer is:
Be a black guy in the states ignoring an arrest warrant and have the cops know when and where you’ll be.
Luminous5481 [they/them]Surely shooting them down if they haven’t faced a trial can’t be protocol
That absolutely is protocol when an aircraft invades your airspace and refuses to turn around or land when intercepted. It’s happened before, and depending on the country, sometimes they don’t give the intercepted aircraft a warning before they open fire. Sometimes they even fire warning shots, but the interloper doesn’t see them.
That happened more than once with Korean civilian airliners that strayed into the USSR.
“Civilian Aircraft (Article 3 bis): Adopted in 1984, this amendment to the Chicago Convention requires all states to refrain from using weapons against civil aircraft in flight. Safety of passengers must not be endangered, and in cases of interception, the lives of those on board must be protected.”
Unless the plane was a military threat, shooting them down would be considered improper internationally.
Not intercepting the PMs plane and arresting him for the ICC warrant is also illegal under international law. Israel can’t legally occupy the settlements that they do, that’s a violation of international law. They can’t bomb refugee camps, that’s a violation of international law. They can’t starve Palestinians intentionally, that’s against international law. They can’t refuse medical help to injured civilians or Hamas fighters who cannot fight anymore, that’s against international law.
I’m assuming, as somebody quoting some random treaty to me, that you’re a liberal who views laws and legality as the order that holds our world together. It must come as a real shock to you that no state actually gives a shit about what’s legal, they only care about what they can get away with. Unless you can force your government to abide by a law, they can do whatever the fuck they want. That’s the neat thing about laws, they don’t mean shit unless the government in question decides to abide by them.
So your thought is Greece who made agreemennts with Israel is going to fly U.S. made jets to arrest someone that the U.S. doesn’t want arrested, to answer to a court that the U.S. also doesn’t recognize. We knew Greece wouldn’t do it. Would have to be another country
So your thought is
no, that isn’t my thought at all. idk how you got confused, but I’m clearly saying states will do whatever they want so long as they think they can get away with it, and the legality or morality of doing something will never once factor into the decision.
Member states should receive fines or other sanctions each time they ignore arrest warrants they are obliged to uphold.
MeldrikApparently, the ICC only exists to punish 3rd world countries. There is no such thing as moral superiority by the “developed countries”. It’s a myth.
ComfortableRaspberryDuh, it’s because the other countries are so developed, they can’t commit any atrocities ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Law: 0
Criminals: 1
So what are the citizens of Greece, Italy, and France gonna do to hold their governments accountable?
I remember a time when international law still was worth a damn. Now it seems every time someone finds an international law inconvenient, it gets ignored.
I remember a time when international law still was worth a damn
There never was such a time. There’s a reason the ICC has only ever prosecuted failed Global South dictators.
thatsnomayoI mean, what would they even do, shoot it down if they refused to land?
I’m sure Rafale pilots are capable of forcing a plane to land without shooting at it.
ElchiYes! Fucking yes! Clearly confirnedge.ocide is a less serious crime than not stealing a fucking candy bar.
Gross